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General wore Chairman, with the action of the Government. I say there is nothing in it. That is a misunderstanding which arises from a question I put to one of the witnesses, which will be found on page 141. I believe the Chinese officials are as energetic in trying to put down kidnapping as we are and would thank any one of whatever nationality who assisted in putting down the crime of kidnapping and protecting women and children from it. Now, in conclusion, sir, I am sorry for having taken up so much time and I must apologise. It is rather unfortunate that I am not a ready debater and I hope that I have not said anything hasty on the spur of the moment, anything which will offend anybody. If I have, I hope they will excuse me, and if they wish, in twelve months' time, I will write an ample apology and explanation. (Laughter).
the mandarins in the neighbouring mainland will regard the institution with esteem and respect. It must be remembered that we are asked to set aside $20,000 from the public funds at our disposal to endow this institution. It would be only right for one member of the Government to have a say in the management and investment by the members of the Board of Direction. We know from experience that at meetings, whether public or private, a great deal of deference is shown to the Chairman and I believe that you will find that the Chairman of the Po Leung Kuk will seldom find himself in a minority. Then again, instead of allowing the Society to stand alone as an isolated body, we shall, by appointing the Registrar-General Chairman, create a link between that institution and the executive Government of this Colony. There is another reason, sir, why I advocate that this Bill should be passed. I feel that by granting the Society the powers it seeks, we shall show the Chinese inhabitants of this Colony that respectability will not be denied our confidence or regarded with distrust. (Applause.) They will thus be imbued with deeper respect for the administration, while the good fellowship now subsisting between us will be increased and the Chinese community drawn closer to us than ever before. (Applause).
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—I rise to say a few words in support of this Bill and to state that I shall vote for the second reading. As the result of the inquiry and of the evidence taken by the Committee, I am satisfied that, in spite of many defects and of numerous irregularities, the Po Leung Kuk Society has rendered most invaluable services in the past and, if established on a better footing, is likely to be capable of rendering very valuable assistance to the Government in the future and to the Registrar-General's Department in its labours for the protection of women and children and in the detection and suppression of kidnapping and kindred offences.
Hon. B. R. BELILIOS—Sir, I desire to say a few words in support of the Po Leung Kok Ordinance now before the Council. Our resolution is not unreasonable or unusual. We have precedents for it in India. In that country, the elders of the various sects, creeds, and nationalities form themselves into societies called Panchayats, and these Panchayats, I believe, have larger powers conferred on them by the Government with regard to matrimonial and social usages than those proposed to be given to the Po Leung Kuk by the Bill before us. I think, therefore, sir, that we need have no fear in granting the powers that are proposed to be given to the Society. With reference to the financial position of the Society, I may say that I am in favour of the grant of $80,000 being made to it against the $3000 raised by the members themselves. Having regard to the fact that the Chinese community, in the aggregate, are the largest taxpayers, the sum asked for endowment is not large, and I think we should give it ungrudgingly. Personally, I am, and have always been, in favour of the establishment of institutions of this kind, by which what may be termed the native population are encouraged to help themselves. If, at any future time, individuals or Societies were to come before this Council with proposals to the effect that he or they were prepared to devote a certain sum of money for the establishment of some charitable institution, provided the Government furnished a like sum for an endowment, I, for one, would readily support and advocate the giving of such a grant.
It has been urged by two hon. members of the Special Committee that, by appointing the Registrar-General Chairman of the Po Leung Kuk, we shall show the Chinese Government that the Society is a Government institution. Now, sir, so far from thinking that a disadvantage, I hold the directly opposite opinion, and I think that it would be better to make it apparent that the Society is a Government institution because, in that case, we shall not excite any jealousy.
When the Bill for the incorporation of the Society came before the Council last year, I was not in favour of it. I was not then disposed to grant a vote of public money to the Society, but since the inquiry, I have changed my opinion. Many intelligent people in the community, including Government servants and Police Magistrates, did not know and did not believe that the Society was doing good.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—They know nothing about it.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—I think that the impression generally existed that the Society was doing some mischief, and the few occasions on which it appeared in the police courts and in the local press were to its serious disadvantage. Until quite recently, there were no reports published of the operations of the Po Leung Kuk.
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The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—I must correct that statement. There have been annual reports for many years past.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Simply of figures, sir, I think; not of the working of the Society.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—Of the working of the Society.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Nor have there been reports of the working of the Registrar-General's Department, and no one, however intelligent or willing, had the means of obtaining knowledge in respect thereof.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—I wish to state that the hon. member—
"The Chinese do not think anything about it." Your Excellency did not misunderstand me.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—Will you give names, please?
His EXCELLENCY—I do not think it is necessary.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—In your Excellency's speech of April, 1892, you clearly showed that these unfortunate words which I used were not regarded in an offensive sense.
His Excellency—Personally, I am perfectly prepared to accept your explanation.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—Perhaps your Excellency will tell us whether this measure is now regarded as a Government measure, or whether the officials are at liberty to vote as they like or as directed.
His EXCELLENCY—They can vote just as they please, but I think that they are quite unanimous.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—I do not think it is necessary, Your Excellency, for me to reply to the Bill. I was there is no opposition to would only say with regard to the statement of the hon. member that the reports of the Society are not published, that this is only a fair sample of the ignorance of the many intelligent gentlemen to whom he has referred. The report is published in the Hongkong Government Gazette every year.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—I was well aware of that fact, but I mean the report of cases and the operations of the Society. I am sorry the hon. member has misunderstood me.
HIS EXCELLENCY—Mr. Whitehead.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD—I shall vote for the second reading of the Bill, affirming thereby the principle that the Po Leung Kok should be incorporated and should receive assistance from the Government, but I still object to some of the details of the Bill, and in Committee, I shall endeavour to amend these, and more particularly that clause appointing the Registrar-General Chairman of the permanent Board of Direction. The hon. senior unofficial member, who is unfortunately absent to-day, strongly and firmly agrees with me on this point, and his views are expressed in his report, which was laid on the table at the last meeting of Council. My reasons for objecting to the inclusion of the Registrar-General in the permanent Board of Direction of the Society are stated in my report, and I would, were it not late in the afternoon, read the evidence of several Chinese witnesses and of Dr. Eitel, a most invaluable witness, in support of this contention, but wish to draw attention to, and that is with regard to the large number of possibly this can be done in Committee.
A most effective control over the government of the Society has hitherto existed and been carried on by the Registrar-General, and that is now being departed from. It is a most material point, and the effective Government control which has hitherto existed is now being given up. As to the remarks of the hon. Registrar-General and the hon. member representing the Chinese as to various matters, I pass them over for the present, but I will give them the fullest consideration, and possibly before the Council has passed through the Committee stage, some agreement and some modification of our views and opinions may be arrived at.
With regard to the unfortunate words I let fall in April last year, viz., "secret society," a great deal too much has been made of them. I have in the colony a number, a large number, of friends amongst the Chinese, men in whom I have every confidence and for whom I have a vast amount of respect and esteem, and I asked a number of them whether it was necessary for me to do anything instantly in connection with these words, and they said, "The Chinese thought nothing about the charges." If that were so, I do not know why he calls the term he used unfortunate. I should like to say that all the Chinese whom I have spoken to considered the term a most improper one, and one which they could not help regarding as an insult to the Chinese community.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL spoke in favour of the Bill.
The Bill was read a second time unopposed. The Council went into Committee on the Bill, and the Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD moved several amendments and made numerous suggestions, none of which were adopted. Only one of the amendments was seconded, when the COLONIAL SECRETARY performed the office pro forma, and on the division, the mover was in a minority of one. On the suggestion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, several verbal amendments were made, and section 31 of Ordinance 10 of 1890 was incorporated as section 21 of the Bill.
The Bill was then reported, and the Council adjourned until Monday, 19th June.
224
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General wore Chairman, with the action of the Government. I say there is nothing in it. That is a misunderstanding which arises from a question I put to one of the witnesses, which will be found on pige 141. 1 believe the Chinese officials are as energetic in trying to patdown kidnapping as we are and would thank any ove of whatever nationality who assisted in putting ment of that fand. There need be no apprehen. down the cring of kidnapping and protect-sion. sir, on the score of out voting the Chairman ing women and children from it. Now. in conclusion, sir, I am sorry for having taken up so much time and I must apologise. It is rather unfortunate that I am not a ready debater Caught and I hope that I have not said any. thig hasty on the pur of the moment, auy- thing which will offend anybody, If I have I hope they will excuse me. and if they wish in twelve months time I will write an ample apology and explanation. (Laughter).
the mandarins in the neighbouring mainland will regard the institution with esteem and respect. It must be remembered that we are asked ed to set aside $20,000 from the public funds our disposal to endow this institution. It would | be only right for one member of the Government to have a say in the management and invest-
|
by the members of the Board of Direction. We know from experience that at meetings, whether public or private, a great deal of deference is shown to the Chairman and I believe that you will find that the Chairman of the Po Leung Kuk will seldom find himself in a minority. Then again, instead of allowing the Society to stand alone as an isolated body, we shall by appointing the Registrar-General Chairman create a link between that institution and the executive Government of this Colony. There is another reason, sir, why I advocate that this Bill should be passed. I feel that by grant- ing the Society the powers it seeks wo shall show the Chinese inhabitants of this Colony that res-
bationality will not be denied our confidence or regarded with distrust. (Applause.) They will thus be imbued with deeper respect for the ad- ministration, while the good followship now aub- sisting between us will be increased and the Chinese community drawn closer to us than erer before. (Applause).
Hou. T. H. WHITEHEAD-I rise to say a few words in support of this Bili and to state that I shall vote for the second reading. As the re- sult of the inquiry and of the evidence taken by the Committee I am satisfied that in spite of many defects and of numerous irregularities the Po Loung Kuk Society has rendered most in- valuable services in the past and if establish d on a better footing is likely to be capable of rendering very valuable assistance to the Govern- ment in the future and to the Registrar-General's Department in its lab nrs for the protection of women and children aud in the detection and
Hon. B. R. BELILIOS-Sir, I desire to say a few words in support of the Po Leung Kok Ordinance now before the Council. Our resolu tion is not unreasonable or unusual. We bave precedents for it in India. In that country the olders of the various seats, creeds, and natior-pectable men whether Chinese or of any other alities form theinselves into societies called Pun- chah-yats and these Pan-cbab-yats. I believe, bave larger powers conferred on them by the Government with regard to matrimonial and social usages than those proposed to be given to the Po Leung Kuk by the Bill before us I think therefore, sir, that we need have no fear in granting the powers that are proposed to b given to the Society. With reference to the financial position of the Society. I may say that I am in favour of the grant of $80,000 being | ninde do it against the $3000 raised by the members themselves. Baving regard to the fact that the Chinese commauity in the aggre- gats are the largest taxpayers the sum asked for endowment is not large and I think we should give it ungrudgingly. Personally I am and have always been in favour of the establishment of institutions of this kind. by which what may be termed the native popalation are encouraged to help themselves. If at any future time in-suppression of kidnapping and kindred offences. dividuals or Societies were to came before this Council with proposi ions to the effe that be or they were prepared to devote a tain Sum of money for the establish- ment of some charitable institution procid. ed the Government furnished a like sum for an endowment I for one would readily support and advocate the giving of such a grant. It has been urged by two hon. members of the Special Com mittee that by appointing the Registrar-General hairman of the Fo Leung Kuk we shall show the Chinese Government that the Society is a Government institution. Now, sir. so far from thinking that a disadvantage I hold the directly opposite opinion, and I think that it would be better to make it apparent that th: So- ciety is a Government institution because in that case we
shall not oxite any jealousy and
ger-
When the Bill for the incorporation of the No- city came before the Council last year I was not in favour of it. I was not then disposed to grant a vote of public men y to the Society but since the inquiry I have changed my opinion. Many intelligent people in the com- wunity, including Government servants and Police Magistrates, did not know and did not believe that the Socisty was doing good.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL—They know no- thing about it.
Ron. T. H. WHITEHEAD-I think that the impression generally existed that the Society was doing some mischief and the few occasions on which it appeared in the police courts and in the local press were to its serious disadvantage. Until quite recently there were no reports published of the operations of the Po Leung Kuk.
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The REGISTRAR-GENERAL-I must corrent that statement. There have been annual reports |
many years past.
Hon T. H. WHITEHEAD-Simply of figu- res, sir, I think; not of the working of the Society.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL-Of the working of the Society.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD-Nor have there been reports of the working of the Registrar- General's Department, and no one, however intelligent or willing, had the means of obtain- ing knowledge in respect thereof.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL-I wish to state that the hon. member-
The Chinese do not think anything about it." Your Excellency did not misunderstand me.
The REGISTRAR-GENDKAL~Will you give uames, please?
His EXCELLENCY-I do not think it is neces-
sary.
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD-In your Ex- oellency's speech of April, 1892, you clearly
showed that these unfortunate words which 1 used were not regarded in an offensive sense.
His Excellency-Personally I am perfectly prepared to accept your explanation.
Hon. T. H. WH FIMMBAD-Perhaps your Ex- colleney will tell us whether this measure is now regarded as a Government measure or whe ther the officials are at liberty to vote as they like or as directed.
His EXCELLENCY-They can vote just as they please, but I think that they are quite
ananimous.
The REGISTRAR-GENERAL-I do not think it is necessary, Your Excellency, for me to reply, the Bill. I as there is no opposition to would only say with regard to the statement of the hon. member that the reports of the So- ciety are not published, that this is only a fair sample of the ignorance of the many intelligent gentlemen to whom he has referred. The report is published in the Hongkong Government Gazette every year.
was well Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD-I aware of that fact, but I mean the report of cases and the operations of the Society. I am sorry the hon. momber has misunderstood me.
HIS EXCELLENCY-Mr. Whitehead. Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD-I shall vote for the second reading of the Bill, Taffirming thereby the principle that the Po Leung Kok should be incorporated and should receive assist- ance from the Government, but I still object to some of the details of the Bill and in com- mittee I shall endeavour to amend these. and more particularly that elanse appointing the Registrar-General Chairman of the permanent Board of Direction. The hon. senior nuofficial member, who is unfortunately absent to-day. strongly and firmly agrees with me ou this point and his views are expressed in his roport which was laid on the table at the last meeting of Conn- cil. My reasons for objecting to the inclusion of the Registrar-General iu the permanent Board of Direction of the Society are stated in my report and I would, were it not late in the The REGISTRAR-GENERAL-A report of those afternoon, read the evidence of several Chinese is also published and circulated among the witnesses and of Dr. Eitel, a most invaluable Chinese. There is only one other point I witness, in support of this contention, but wish to draw attention to, and that is with Chinese the large number of possibly this can be done in Committee regard to
bas who told later on. A most effective control over the friends the hon. member government of the Society has hitherto existed him the Chinese thought nothing about the and been carried on by the Registrar-General, charges. If that were so I do not know why he and that is now being departed from. It is a calls the term he used unfortunate. 1 should most material point and the effective Govern-like to say that all the Chinese whom I have ment control which has hitherto existed is now spoken to considered the term a most improper being given ap. As to the remarks of the one and one which they could not help regarding hou. Registrar-General and the hon. member as an insult to the Chinese community. representing the Chinese as to various matters, I pass them over for the present, but I will give them the fullest consideration and possibly befors the Council has passed through the committee stage some agreement and some modification of our views and opinions may be arrived at. With regard to the unfortunate words I let fall in April last year, viz., "secret society," a great deal too much has been made of them. I have in the colony a number, a large number, of friends amongst the Chinese, men in whom I have every confidence and for whom I have a vast amount of respect and esteem, and I asked a number of them whether it was necessary for me to do anything instantly in connection with these words and they said,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL spoke in favour of the Bill.
The Bill was read a second time unopposed. The Council went into committer on the Bill and the Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD moved several amendinents and made numerous suggestions, none of which wore adopted. Only one of the amendments was seconded, when tho COLONIAL SECRETARY performed the office pro forma and on the division the mover was in a minority of oue. On the suggestion of the ATTORNEY-GENE- RAI.. gevaral verbal amendments were made aud section 31 of Ordinance 10 of 1890 was incor- ported as section 21 of the Bill.
The Bill was then reported and the Council adjourned until Monday, 19th June.
224
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